"I was always interested in Hu Yaobang. I was working in the U.S. government during the time when he was general secretary, and I always found him to be a very interesting man. He was not a typical leader. He was just a little short guy, had a very high voice, very kind of bouncy and interested in discussions of issues and so forth. He was not a kind of a Mao type, or even a Deng Xiaoping type -- a great leader figure. So I thought that was interesting. And the more I looked at the period of time when he was in office, the more it began to occur to me that that he was more of a reformer than Deng Xiaoping. Deng Xiaoping gets a lot of credit for the PRC reform efforts, and in some cases and there's a fair number of Chinese writers who actually believe that Deng does not deserve the credit that he's gotten."