Marcel Lefebvre

"Interviewer: You often say that more than a question of liturgy, today it is a question of faith that opposes us to the current Rome. Mgr. Lefebvre: Of course, the question of liturgy and the sacraments is very important, but it is not the most important. The most important question is that of faith. For us, it is settled. We have the faith of always, that of the Council of Trent, of the Catechism of Saint Pius X, of all the Councils and of all the Popes before Vatican II."

"This is what Tradition means to them, the famous living tradition, the only reason for our condemnation. Today they no longer try to prove that what they say is in accordance with what Pius IX wrote, with what the Council of Trent promulgated. All this is over, outdated, as Cardinal Ratzinger says."

"Now there is the tyranny of authority, because there are no more rules. One can no longer refer to the past. [...] We are dealing with people who have a different philosophy from ours, a different way of seeing things, influenced by all the modern and subjectivist philosophers. For them, there is no fixed truth, there are no dogmas. Everything is evolution. This is a completely Masonic conception. It is truly the destruction of the faith."

"[A practical agreement with the Holy See would give] ample space to the apostolate, perhaps, but in ambiguity, following two opposing directions at the same time, which would have ended up causing us to rot. (1988, before the Ecône episcopal consecrations)"

"The majority does not make the truth; it is the truth that must make the majority."

"We accept what is in accordance with perennial teaching, we receive what is ambiguous in accordance with perennial teaching, and we reject what is contrary to it."

"On Pinochet's dictatorship, 13 April 1987: ‘As soon as a man stands up to save his country from communism and restores Christian order, everything is done to discredit him. There is no country where people can move around as freely as in Chile.’"

"Voting socialist is voting against God. The socialist programme, he said, is terrifying for the souls of children. Economically, it will probably be a disaster, but what is worse is the control it will have over people's minds. Money is nothing compared to souls, and sin will spread everywhere. [...]"

"They placed a new missal in my hands, saying, “Here is the Mass you must celebrate and will now celebrate in all your houses.” They also told me that if, on this date, today, June 29, before our assembly, we had celebrated a Mass according to the new rite, everything between us and Rome would now be settled."

"Opposing the highest authorities in the Church and being suspended “a divinis” is a serious and very painful matter for a bishop. How is it possible to endure such a thing, unless for extremely serious reasons? And yes! The reasons for our behaviour and your behaviour are serious reasons: it is the defence of our faith! I have done work very similar to what I have been doing for thirty years. And now, suddenly, I am suspended “a divinis”, perhaps soon to be excommunicated, separated from the Church, renounced, who knows? Is this possible? Could it be that what I have been doing for thirty years was also grounds for suspension “a divinis”?"

"Questo catechismo olandese da dove viene? Ma non è un catechismo cattolico, viene dai Cardinali, viene dai Vescovi. e anche il catechismo francese e quello italiano -io l'ho visto questo catechismo italiano- vi sono degli errori, non è più la vera dottrina cattolica come l'avevano insegnata prima. Ma allora questo è una gravissima situazione; allora in tutto il mondo -io posso dirlo perché ho viaggiato in tutto il mondo e ho visto dei gruppi come i vostri che dicono...- ma che cosa passa nella Chiesa, noi non sappiamo più com'è la Chiesa Cattolica. Oggi queste cerimonie, questo culto mezzo protestante e mezzo cattolico, è un teatro, come un teatro, non è più un mistero, questo mistero del sacrificio della Messa, grande mistero, sublime mistero celeste. Non si sente più questa soprannaturalità della Messa. Allora è come vuoto, come una cerimonia vuota: si esce dalla chiesa, non si sa se abbiamo assistito a una cerimonia cattolica o a una cerimonia profana. Ma questo è possibile. Allora la gente buona e semplice dice: "no c'è qualche cosa che non è buona [in] questa riforma". E vedono i seminari vuoti, i noviziati delle suore vuoti.[...] Allora dobbiamo resistere per il bene della Chiesa, non per essere contro quelli che hanno l'autorità nella Chiesa, mai, mai. Io ho molto rispetto per il Santo Padre, per i vescovi, per il cardinale, mai io mi sento [in] cuore di dire una parola indegna, anche il vostro Cardinale, no. Ma io affermo la dottrina cattolica e io dico [che] io voglio rimanere cattolico come sono stato cattolico quando sono stato battezzato."

"I spent fifteen years in Dakar with three million Muslims, one hundred thousand Catholics and four hundred thousand animists, and if during those fifteen years we were able to convert ten Muslims, that was the maximum. I mean truly convert them, make them switch from Islam to Catholicism. I'm not saying that there wasn't some Catholic influence thanks to our schools, where we had up to 10-15% Muslims. I didn't want any more than that, otherwise they would have imposed Islam in our schools. Once they are strong, they impose themselves, take the lead and try to convert others. When they are weak, they listen and keep quiet. The young people who went to our schools were certainly influenced, and it is very possible that some of them wanted to be baptised. But it is very difficult for a young man to convert to Catholicism because he is driven out of his family and knows that he even risks being poisoned. [...] Only university students manage to convert because they are independent. They know that their future is secure; they no longer need their families and will leave for Europe, where they can convert. But converting someone who is part of their family is practically impossible. By inspiring the Islamic religion, the devil has truly prevented the conversion of millions of people."

"And if Muslims were granted all freedoms, polygamy would have to be allowed in the States. Islam is not just about Muslims kneeling in the streets at prayer time; it is also about the threat of submission, i.e. of becoming ‘Dhimmi’ for all those who are not like them. Can we accept this in Catholic states? Can we accept that these states do not defend themselves?"

"A Muslim proverb says: ‘Kiss the hand you cannot cut off.’ Yes, only force can intervene. When force is present, then they kiss the hand. But when they have the force, then they cut off the hand. It has always been this way."

"Yes, we forget this, but that is what Islam is all about. For Muslims, there is only Islam and everyone must submit to it, either by becoming a Muslim or by being a slave to Islam. One or the other. That is how they proceeded, enslaving all those who did not want to submit. Let us remember the religious orders: the Trinitarians and the Order of Our Lady of Mercy, which were founded to rescue Christians held captive as slaves by Muslims. They raided the coasts of France, Spain and the entire Mediterranean, kidnapping Christians and taking them home as slaves. This is still in their minds."

"If you ask a bishop in France whether we should try to convert Muslims, whether they are in France or elsewhere, or convert animists, Buddhists... Oh no! We must not convert them. On the contrary, we must strengthen them in their religion, make them understand the beauty of their religion. It is unbelievable, but it is nevertheless the reality."

"Father Maurice Avril, who is in Salérans, was persecuted by the bishops and had all kinds of trouble because after the Algerian War, he took care of the Harkis who were lucky enough to escape and take refuge in France. The Harkis had fought to defend French Algeria and wrest it from revolutionary control."

"Tens of thousands of them were massacred when De Gaulle handed Algeria over to the representatives of the FLN. The latter, of course, could not stand the Harkis who had fought alongside French troops to liberate French Algeria from terrorism and revolutionary rule. Those who were unable to flee to France on boats were tortured, massacred, buried alive and burned alive. What an abominable crime those who took such responsibility will have on their conscience! These were people who had devoted themselves, ready to die to defend French Algeria, just as some of them had come to fight in France in 1939-40, then during the Liberation when they landed in Italy, Corsica and Provence, and later against communism in Indochina. They were abandoned to the mercy of a cruel enemy who subjected them to the most abominable torments. It was a terrible tragedy. Many of their children remained in France; only the adults were sent back. Father Avril, who was a priest in French Algeria, took in more than a hundred of them. He educated them, raised them and took good care of them. The children of these Harkis found themselves in the hands of a priest who took care of their education and who, very gently, tried to convert them—without forcing them, of course—but through persuasion. Seeing the dedication of this priest and those who helped him, they eventually came to understand the beauty of the Catholic religion, and most of them ended up converting. This did not sit well with several bishops, who sent letters of disapproval to Father Avril: leave the Muslims alone; do not convert them! But who are these bishops?"

"I was a member of the preparatory commissions appointed by Pope John XXIII, and together with the other members—distinguished cardinals and good theologians—we prepared the preliminary outlines that were to serve as a basis for the scholars of the assembly. The preparation of these outlines, which were to be approved and promulgated as authoritative documents of the Church's teaching, required time, reflection, and consultation of ecclesiastical sources and documents. All this had to be taken into account. But then, in the first session of the Council, a group of bishops and cardinals, using modern techniques of pressure, managed to remove the exhaustive work that had been done. Thus, being subject to time constraints and internal regulations, new discussion outlines had to be prepared in other commissions set up in a completely arbitrary manner. Imagine the difficulties this entailed and bear in mind the decisive activity of certain cardinals and bishops, those who were called “coming from the banks of the Rhine,” gathered in the Idoc group, all imbued with modernism and liberalism and who, in addition, could count on a well-financed superstructure of offices, press, distribution, etc."

"Interviewer: By saying this, aren't we running the risk of undermining the Holy Spirit's assistance to the Council? Mgr. Lefebvre: I said that Vatican II was a purely pastoral council, and for this very reason it is clear that the two popes who presided over its sessions did not intend to commit the dogmatic Magisterium of the Holy Church to the even. It is therefore in this perspective that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the documents produced by the Council must be considered. The liberal orientation of the Council cannot be attributed to the Holy Spirit; it would be blasphemous, sacrilegious."

"I see only one type of ecumenism: that promoted by the Council, which emphasizes respect and collaboration with false religions, placed on the same level. This is a new concept that has been imposed and is in contradiction with Tradition. In place of the “missionary” Church, the new “ecumenical” Church has appeared. The Assisi meeting consecrates this new Church, and this is enormous, scandalous. [...] If salvation is possible even without conversion to Christ in the Church, and while continuing to worship one's false gods, what meaning does mission still have? Then all religions are equal, good... If this Pope had lived at the time of the Roman persecutions of the early centuries, perhaps Christianity would have found a respectable place in the Pantheon of religions."

"I celebrated Mass according to the new liturgical directives of 1965, but never according to the definitive ones of 1968, which bear the signature of Monsignor Bugnini. [...] The Faith is the teaching of the Church throughout the centuries, in accordance with the teaching of the Apostles. [...] I give you another definition, that contained in the anti-modernist oath of St. Pius X: the submission of the intellect and will to the Revelation of God, because God is the supreme authority and cannot err. Interviwer: And do you really think that Paul VI and John Paul II substantially changed this fundamental core of the Faith? Mgr. Lefebvre: I think they give another definition of the Faith. For them, Faith is a religious sentiment, an interior, subjective act. [...] The conscience is made to obey Revelation, not for itself. The problem is that for the last popes—speaking in Christian terms— the “subject” comes before the “object.” Whereas for the Tradition of the Church, the exact opposite is true: the object precedes the subject."

"There are some conciliar texts that are clearly in conformity with Tradition and pose no problem: I am thinking of Lumen Gentium, but also of other documents such as those on priestly formation and seminaries. Then there are ambiguous texts, which nevertheless can be correctly “interpreted” in a certain way according to the previous Magisterium. But there are also texts that are frankly in contradiction with Tradition and cannot be “integrated” in any way: the Declaration on Religious Freedom, the Decree on Ecumenism, and the one on the Liturgy. Here agreement becomes impossible. [...] It is the Declaration on Religious Freedom that is the real bone of contention, because the introduction of this liberal principle into the Church has led to other errors. The break with Tradition in this case is evident: eleven Popes, from Pius VI to Pius XII, condemned liberalism, and the Council approved it. No one can convince me that there is no contradiction."

"The Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [Cardinal Ratzinger] asked me to put my opinions and doubts on this subject in writing. I did so, and in November 1985 I sent him a 150-page typewritten study. In January 1986, he replied that he had received these documents and appreciated their philological care."

"Interviewer: You have a certain tendency to see ‘conspiracies’ everywhere. Five days before being suspended a divinis, in a letter to Paul VI, you denounced ‘a secret agreement between high-ranking ecclesiastical dignitaries and Freemasons, established before the Council. Mgr. Lefebvre: But all the American newspapers wrote that, before the Council, Cardinal Bea, founder of the Vatican Secretariat for Ecumenism, had met with the leaders of the most influential Jewish-Masonic lodge at the Astoria Hotel in New York and asked them what they expected from the Council. And they replied: ‘A declaration on religious freedom’."

"(About Pinochet) I am not saying that his regime is perfect, but at least we find Christian principles as the fundamental program of his political orientation. He is a man of justice and order and favors the presence of the Catholic Church, even if the Chilean bishops—what a paradox!—are not at all grateful to him. [...] When Pinochet recently escaped an assassination attempt, [...] people shouted, “Thank you, Holy Virgin, for protecting the general's life."

"Who can say what events the future holds for us? Perhaps a world conflict will break out and the situation will change radically. [...] Those who provoke the schism are those who change the Faith. I am certain that I belong to the Catholic Church of all times, the eternal Church."

"The meeting in Assisi is a very serious matter. And if the Pope, whose function is to confirm the Faith, no longer fulfills his duty, what is to be done? The situation has reached the highest degree of gravity. I see no similar precedents in the history of the Church."

"What value can an excommunication decided by the current liberal government of the Church have? For more than a century, conservative popes have condemned and excommunicated the Lamennais, the Buonaiuti, the Loisy, because they were liberals and modernists. Today, it is they who hold power in the Church, and they want to excommunicate traditionalists, that is, true Catholics."

"Then one can and must believe that the Church is occupied, occupied by this counter-Church that we know well, that the Popes knew perfectly well and that the Popes have condemned over the centuries, from now back to four centuries ago. The Church has never ceased to condemn this counter-Church that was born and developed with Protestantism, and which is at the root of all modern errors, which has destroyed all philosophy, which has led us to all the errors we know and which the popes have condemned: liberalism, socialism, communism, modernism, Zionism... we are dying from it! We are dying from it! The Popes have done everything to condemn this, and now those who sit on the seats of their predecessors who condemned these things are in agreement with this liberalism, with this ecumenism. (at minutes 4:00-4:40)"

"This cannot be accepted! And the more things become clear, the more we must realize that this program was developed in Masonic lodges, that all these errors were developed in Masonic lodges. It is becoming increasingly clear that there is indeed a Masonic lodge in the Vatican. And now when we go to meet a secretary of a Vatican congregation, or a cardinal sitting on a seat where there used to be holy cardinals who had the Faith and defended the Christian faith, who were men of the Church... now we find ourselves in front of a Freemason. So, is it the same thing? They demand the same obedience. Before, obedience to the Faith was required, to take the anti-modernist oath. A profession of faith was required. Now, what faith do those people ask us to profess? It is no longer the same. They say: Obedience, obedience! Yes, but obedience to the Church. Obedience to what the Church has always commanded! Yes, obedience to the faith of the Church. But obedience to Freemasonry, no. That's it, that's for sure! (at min. 4:45:6:15)"

"Lately, I have been given documents that appear to be completely true, documents that show the correspondence between Monsignor Bonini and the Grand Master of Freemasonry on the entire liturgical reform. The Grand Master of Freemasonry asks Bonini to apply the reform of the apostate priest Roca, who had already predicted everything that had to be done when the Vatican was occupied by Freemasonry. [...] The Grand Master asks Bonini to apply the principle of “naturalization,” the naturalization of the Incarnation, that is, to de-supernaturalize the Incarnation, and thus we arrive at naturalism, and therefore we must apply the principles of local languages, the multiplicity of rites, the multiplicity of the liturgy, and to make the liturgy totally confused, to instill confusion everywhere, and opposition between the different rites. And Bonini replies that he is in complete agreement, and that it will take some time, perhaps ten years. But that at the end of the ten years we will get there. And that with the trust placed in him by Cardinal Lercaro and Pope Paul VI, he is sure of success, and he names all those in the Curia who are affiliated with Freemasonry. He names them and says he will be able to work with them. But some of them must be placed in certain congregations so that [...], in order for the work to be successful, all the congregations must be infiltrated with members of Freemasonry, whom he names: so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so... “We must get rid of that one because he is against us... we must get him out...” "the Congregation of the Sacraments must be suppressed," and he managed to put everything under the Congregation of Rites, he managed to put everything under his authority. Everything he says in the letter to the Grand Master of Freemasonry. So what should we do? We certainly want to obey. We are the most obedient to the Church, to everything the Church has always taught and wanted. But not to men who want the destruction of the Church. (at min. 6:17-9:00)"

"The enemy is within the Church. Pope St. Pius X announced it. La Salette announced it. Fatima announced it. Everything had been announced! We have known for a century and a half that he would be introduced into the Church. Well, he is already there, he is already there. Let them not come and ask us to suspend ordinations. Who is asking not to ordain? Who is asking not to form good priests anymore? The Holy Spirit or the Devil? It is clear. Is it normal in the Church to ask a bishop not to form good priests? Is such a thing normal? [...] They know that the doctrine taught there is the true doctrine: they know it perfectly well, they wrote it in the visitors' report, an excellent report in favor of the seminary. That is what Cardinal Garrone told me when he asked me to come to Rome. He said to me: “The report is good, we know that the seminary is good.” But then why close the seminary? Simply because we do not want to follow the Masonic orientation of ecumenism, all those orientations that have been forged by the Masonic lodges. [...] This does not come from the Holy Spirit [...] It is a Masonic lodge that has managed to penetrate the Vatican and has taken everything into its own hands. And it obviously cannot listen to us. It is obvious: we are an obstacle to their plan, to their plan to destroy the priesthood, the Mass, the liturgy. It is obvious! It is obvious! And must we obey? I believe in my conscience before God, when I am told, “Reflect well in your conscience before God on what you are doing.” [...] I truly believe that by doing what I am doing and ordaining the priests that I will ordain, I believe that I am serving the Church. I would not do it if I thought for a moment that it could be contrary to the good of the Church. (at min. 10:07-11:58)"

"[On the issues of religious freedom and “The Church in the Contemporary World”] Cardinal [Giuseppe] Frings from Germany, Cardinal [Franz] Koenig [from Austria]. These figures had already met and discussed these resolutions before the Council, and their specific aim was to compromise with the secular world, to introduce Enlightenment and modernist ideas into Church doctrine. [...] I did everything I could to stop these decisions, which I consider contrary to and destructive of the Catholic Faith. The Council was legitimately convened, but for the purpose of spreading all these ideas. Interviewer': Were there other Cardinals who agreed with you? Mgr. Lefebvre: Yes. There was Cardinal [Ernesto] Ruffini [of Palermo], Cardinal [Giuseppe] Siri [of Genoa], and Cardinal [Antonio] Caggiano [of Buenos Aires]. Interviewer: Were there any bishops who supported you? Mgr. Lefebvre: Yes. Many bishops supported my position. Interviewer: How many bishops? Mgr. Lefebvre: There were more than 250 bishops. They had also formed a group for the purpose of defending the true Catholic Faith."

"At this time, it is important to remind Catholics around the world that obedience to the pope is not a primary virtue. The hierarchy of virtues begins with the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity, followed by the four cardinal virtues of Justice, Temperance, Prudence and Fortitude. Obedience is a derivative of the cardinal virtue of Justice. Therefore, it is far from being ranked first in the hierarchy of virtues. Some bishops do not want to give the slightest impression of disobeying the Holy Father. I understand how they feel. It is clearly very unpleasant, if not very painful."

"More than a century ago, secret societies, Illuminati, humanists, modernists, and others, of whom we now have all the texts and evidence, were preparing for a Vatican Council in which they would infiltrate their own ideas for a humanist church. [...] The Second Vatican Council was planned by liberals; it was a liberal council; the Pope is a liberal, and those around him are liberals."

"Dialogue is contrary to Catholic doctrine. Dialogue presupposes the meeting of two equal and opposing parties; therefore, it can in no way have anything to do with the Catholic Faith. All this confusion leads to compromises that destroy the doctrine of the Church, to the misfortune of humanity and of the Church itself."

"The idea that all truths are equal, all religions are equal, and therefore all morals have equal dignity, that every conscience is valid in its own way, that everyone can judge theologically what they can do, all these are humanistic ideas of total laxity without any discipline of thought, which lead to the position that everyone can do as they please. All this is absolutely contrary to our Catholic Faith."

"When they go to a modernist church, they do not find the sacred, the mystical character of the Church, all that is truly divine. What leads to God is divine, and they no longer encounter God in these churches. Interviewer: Why should they go to a place where God is absent? Mgr. Lefebvre: The faithful perceive this very well, and the liberal cardinals and their advisors have seriously underestimated the loyalty of the majority of the faithful to their true Faith."

"In vernacular language, it is said that the Precious Blood was shed “for all,” whereas in the Latin text (even the latest revised Latin text) it is said that the Precious Blood is “for many” and not “for all.” [...] The new Offertory prayers do not express the Catholic notion of sacrifice. They simply express the concept of a mere sharing of bread and wine. For example, the Tridentine Mass addresses the prayer to God: “Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this Immaculate Victim which your unworthy servant offers to You, my living and true God, in reparation for my countless sins, offenses, and negligence.” The new Mass says: “We offer this bread as the bread of life.” There is no mention of sacrifice or victim. Interviewer: Could you cite a translation that actually contradicts Catholic dogma? Mgr. Lefebvre: Yes. For example, in the Latin text, the Virgin Mary is called Semper Virgo, “Ever Virgin.” In all modern translations, the word “ever” has been removed. This is very serious, because there is a big difference between ‘Virgin’ and “Ever Virgin.” It is very dangerous to tamper with translations of this kind."

"Latin is also important for maintaining the unity of the Church, because when people travel, and people travel more and more abroad nowadays, it is important for them to find the same echo that they heard from a priest at home, whether in the United States, South America, Europe, or anywhere else in the world. They are at home in any (Catholic) church. It is their Catholic Mass that is being celebrated. They have always heard the Latin words since childhood, their parents before them, and their grandparents before them."

"Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre is one of the most important guardians of Catholic Tradition who distinguished themselves in the 20th century. He is a champion of the deposit of faith of the Holy Roman Church, a faithful guardian of the Holy Mass, of the sanctifying integrity of the priesthood, of the Petrine primacy, and of the stable and firm Creed. In the collective imagination, his name is often linked to the figure of a “rebellious” bishop who was disobedient to the Church. Since the 1970s, just uttering his name seemed to evoke who knows what negativity, who knows what divisions... Much of the press and journalists portrayed him as a “schismatic,” someone who wanted to create his own Church... In reality, he was an uncomfortable figure because he spoke with courageous clarity at a time of great confusion in the Church and in the world."